Lawstudents.ca

Hello,

I am currently entering my fourth year of undergrad, and I am planning on writing the LSAT and applying for law school next year (fall 2011).

While choosing my courses for next year, I began wondering if there is anything I can in terms of academics or extra-curriculars that could enhance my chances of getting into and succeeding in law school. Do any current law students ever think back to their last year as an undergrad and think..."if only I did X differently"? I appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks!

Piece of Advice #1) Take on a full course-load of classes that you are interested in and which will challenge you intellectually.

Piece of Advice #2) Volunteer when and if you can, but only at places you actually care about/interest you--law school admission committees will be able to immediately see "padding" of applications with a flurry of aimless volunteerism.

Piece of Advice #3) Your GPA and LSAT score (and by extension, studying for the LSAT itself) should come before ECs, with very few exceptions. Those two scores will, by-and-large, determine how competitive your application will be; so, study hard, do the absolute best you can in your final year and on the LSAT.

Piece of Advice #4) Use the search tool on this forum (or simply browse around) to explore this topic in more depth.

Take courses that interest you and get involved with ECs that you are passionate about. Work hard. See your friends as much as possible. Rock the LSAT.

Brand spankin new poster here. Still getting used to this forums's format. Therefore, I really don't know where to look for the answers to these questions if they have been previously asked. Please bear with me here!

A few questions.

Well, I understand that U of T has the highest ranked Law School in Canada, so for admission's sake, I will 'aim' for that, and if my qualification are lower, I may still be able to meet the requirements at another Law School.

1) What is a competitive average? I understand that they look at the CGPA as well as your GPA. What is a good one for each?
2) Are 'good' EC's measured in quantity, or quality?
3) Is there a limit to the amount of schools I can apply to?
4) When would it be wise to write the LSAT? I'm going into my Second Year at Western. Is it beneficial to write in early, to get a feel for it, and if need be write it again in the future?
5) What is a competitive LSAT? I'm not sure what a "160 LSAT score" translates into as an average.

Thank you kindly for any feedback.

...

1.) 4.0/4.0

2.) Both

3.) No.

4.) Definitely write it early if you can but don't go unprepared.

5.) 180

Just do your best and take a gander at the 1,000 other threads that discuss this very thing. Good luck.

Since you're new, I won't bring out the flamethrower (but for the record, I would normally bring it out for this response).

I'll start by saying that any and all ranking systems are complete and utter trash when it comes to Canadian law schools. In short, rankings are a tired system from the USA, with no real applicability to Canada. Further, some of the "data" is heavily skewed for one reason or another, and many institutions withold data completely because the system is so inaccurate. To this end, rankings and ratings mean nothing, and with few exceptions, you should focus on going to school in a region/city where you could honestly see yourself practicing law. If you want more info. on the subject of rankings, I'll go on if you wish (also check out the search tool).

On a related note, it's unwise to start your application process by "shooting" for the top, as this sets you on a road ripe with problems. First, there is no "top," as there are literally NO BAD LAW SCHOOLS IN CANADA (caps for emphasis on the truth of this statement). Second, you should always be shooting for your personal best in GPA and LSAT score, not whatever magic number average at a school you think is the "best." Also, people will flame you readily for thinking there's a "best school," and for saying you want to go for that.

And now, to your questions:

1) The long answer is do your absolute best you can, while taking interesting and stimulating courses. The short answer is "as close to 4.0 as you can get."

2) Quality--ad coms can tell when someone is padding their application, and when (often through the personal statement) someone has a genuine interesting in their ECs. Genuine interest trumps everything.

3) There is no limit. However, only apply to schools where you would actually accept a spot if it were offered. If you would never, in a million years, living (and working) in Alberta, don't apply to U of A or U of C.

4) June of your third or fourth year is generally considered the best time to write. June because the test is a) in the afternoon, and b) early enough that you can re-write in the fall and still make that year's application cycle. Most recommend your final year, as you are that much closer to your actual application period. However, write whenever you feel truly ready, not because a calendar tells you it's the best time.

5) Again, do your absolute best you can on the LSAT. That being said, a 170 would make you competitive at all Canadian law schools (assuming you didn't murder anyone during your undergrad).

Good luck!

Hey,
1. You dont need a 4.0 to be competitive. 3.7/4.0 Will put you in the thick of things. Of course 3.8-3.9 will be much better. Depends on what your CGPA is, with drops/best 2/last 2, your average will improve, but aim for a 3.7 or around 90-95 % average!!!1

2. Both as in above posts, but even the best EC's wont make up for sub par GPA or LSAT, focus on those and vollunteer only where you really enjoy what you are doing!!!

3. NO, but be realistic with your numbers, if you have ex. 3.7 GPA but 158 LSAT, dont bother Applying to U of Toronto or UBC unless you feel generous with giving away a $100 each. DO your homework and check schools websites for the numbers you need to be competitive!!!

4. I would write in either Oct or Dec, that way if you dont get a good score, you can rewrite in feb of the year you are going to apply as for most schools, feb is the last lsat date they will consider.

5. As I am also entering year 2 (at U of Manitoba), not sure what 160 equalls in percentage (would guess btw 80-90) but still very good!!!

I disagree with both of these pieces of advice. If someone is already thinking about applying to law school when they're just starting 2nd year of uni, there's no reason to wait until fourth year to write the LSAT. It's common sense to write it at the earliest date at which you feel you are well-prepared.

Senator, if you think that the summer months would be the best time for you to prepare, then you could prepare next summer and write on the Sept./Oct. date. With an LSAT score in hand, it will help you to know at which schools you are a competitive candidate, and to decide what schools will be on your list. It also will give you plenty of time to rewrite, if need be. You are at an advantage because you are starting the process early. Spend some time both here and also on the various law schools' websites to become more familiar with the information available.

Lots of people here are happy to help if newcomers have done some research first.

You'll note I said exactly this one sentence later

I did note that. It's the first three sentences with which I do not agree.

Thank you all for your suggestions. I am grateful.

Sorry if I may have made the impression that U of T was the "best" Law School. I actually didn't say that. I am not completely aware of admissions into Law Schools, and I do understand [based on Rankings] that it is the highest in that regard. Therefore, I figured that it had the most rigid [naturally] admission processes. By 'aiming' for the highest, even if I slip a little, I will still be among the best, if you can comprehend my figure of speech.

By no means are the other Law Schools 'worse' in any regard.


thanks!

ALSO, is there a date limitation when it comes to schools accepting LSAT scores?

For example, if I were to write the LSAT [and be content with the score] say two years prior to actually applying to Law School, will they tell me that my score is too "old"?

dude... u had me at "prostective" students! ...I really hope that's a typo...but to answer your question, my understanding is that an LSAT score is valid for 5 years. Anything within that time frame is ok, so you should be fine!
http://www.lsac.org/canadianCFC/Canadian_homepage.asp

Here is the best piece of advice I can give to prospective students: spend a few hours on lawstudents.ca reading posts. Do searches to find out what others have said about any questions you now have. You are lucky to have found this site. Not everyone does. This is a great resource that has helped many Canadian law students, including myself, through the confusing application process.

Here's another tip: flip back a few pages in the 'General Questions' section until you get to May 2009, and scan posts until September. It is a lot of reading, but worth it. This is when a lot of admissions questions get asked. Also, flip back a few pages in the 'LSAT' section until you get about six weeks before any test date. A lot of LSAT questions get asked around this time, too.

'What marks do I need to get into 'X' University?': Go to the individual school sections and flip back a page or two until you get the latest 'IN!!!!!' thread. Start at post one and read until your vision goes blurry and your brain goes black.

All other forums, such as 'Careers', 'General Law School Discussion', are interesting, but didn't start clicking with me until after I got accepted. The 'Law Schools Comparison' hardly ever compares law schools in any meaningful way, but will make for some big time entertainment when the Maclean's rankings get released.

Enjoy this site. Make yourself comfortable; this will probably be your homepage before too long. And hopefully, after the stressful application process is over, you'll still come back and haunt the 'General Discussions' forum to discuss Brangelina or Harry Potter or A-Rod not being able to hit his 600th home run. And yell at newbies.

FB

Prostective? Where did I write that.... ??

I'm not the original poster dude...

Maybe he was being ironic and did it on purpose.

I think we get your figure of speech, but your logic is a bit flawed - UofT is #1 but it doesn't mean that it's admission standards should be your lodestar (if you're studying for the lsat, make sure you cover "composition-division flaw" questions really well). If you look into its admission criteria you will notice that it doesn't care about your EC's as much as other schools do and it almost totally disregards your reference letters. I don't even know if they care too much about your personal statement.

Each school is different - look up their profiles, see what you like, and see if you meet their admission criteria. Good luck.

Just to clarify the point on personal statements @ U of T: Earlier this year, a disgruntled student sitting on this year's admissions committee came onto the U of T board to set the record straight -- Personal statements matter at U of T. Apparently they can make quite a difference for the majority of applicants hovering around 163-166, and adcomm members spend a significant amount of time reading, re-reading and comparing them. He also mentioned that if you submit LORs, even though they are not required, they will be considered. Nothing you submit is just tossed aside.

That said, your point is well-taken. This year I got into U of T and Western in the first round, but nowhere else in Ontario. Admissions standards are different across the board, so don't expect that being competitive for the "top-ranked" school, whatever that means, will make you competitive for the rest. A high LSAT may impress certain people, and be totally lost on others.

^

May I ask what your cGPA, your last two, and your LSAT score was?

Who advocated for you in your reference letters?

1) A "competitive average" changes from school to school, though having an A- to A CGPA (I believe that's around a 3.7 to 4.0 in the 4.0, correct me if wrong) and a high 160s to 170s LSAT will give you a good shot at most schools, other criteria aside. Also, it's very true that the quality of Canadian legal education is comparable at each of the schools, though a few are more difficult to get into than others, often for a variety of reasons. I gather there still remain some perceived notions of prestige surrounding places like McGill and Osgoode, U of T is located in downtown TO, and UVic and UBC (also higher-than-average stats) are both in great cities on the west coast... Location may well have something to do with it here. Still, all things are pretty much equal.

2) Quality is better than quantity. Still, it will look great if you've worked very closely with a number of different places all for the long haul, and if your schedule permits, is worth giving a go at. Just be sure you're actually interested in the maters at hand, and it's best if you can interrelate them all when writing up the personal statement.

3) Only a financial one. If you're actually prepared to move anywhere in Canada for law school and have the coin to drop, there's nothing stopping you from applying to them all.

4) Write the LSAT when you're ready. Consider looking over the questions now to get a feel for what the test's like, and then when you're ready to start practicing (a few months of this is highly worth it), get down to business. I gather most people do this during their last year, or during the 2 or 3 sittings prior to most application deadlines (which are around Early Nov).

6) Totally relative to your GPA and the school you're applying for. Averages fluctuate each setting, so 160 could mean 80th percentile one time, 85th percentile on another, and 79th percentile another.

http://www.lsac.org/canadiancfc/canadian_homepage.asp

This webpage provides some helpful links, many of which have charts that show LSAT scores compared with GPAs, and numbers of students admitted from each group. Remember also that a good personal statement is necessary, along with favourable letters of reference at most (if not all) schools. If you're still in undergrad and will be applying straight out of school, getting those letters from two professors who are both familiar with and fond of you could be a good idea.

Q: Uh, what data could the schools "withold" (sic)?

A: Uh, none. The beauty of the rankings Prof. Leiter designed is that none of the pertinent data is disclosed by the schools and thus can't be manipulated.

You'll note I didn't name Maclean's as the rating system I was referring to. While it's true Maclean's bases theirs on a select few categories and public data (and good on them), there are other ratings systems that do not. Often these draw on things like "student happiness" or "quality of teachers" or "style of teaching" and other such categories. Most of this data comes from internal polls on behalf of the students' associations or the school itself (or both), and as such, a number of schools refuse to release the results.

I apologize if it looked like I was running down Maclean's review criteria (though I don't personally think it's sufficient to "rank" schools on, but that's another debate).

I don't know why everyone has such a hate-on for the Maclean's rankings. I actually find them very useful; I know not to waste my time on anyone who takes them seriously.

U of C student spotted!

Right before I was scheduled to take the LSAT I took a course at the UofM through the Philosophy Department called "Critical Thinking", and it might as well have been called "LSAT Prep". That's my wholesale advice for anyone looking to build a GPA and prep for LSAT - kill both birds with that one stone.

When the Slurpee machine breaks, do customers complain to you, or to your supervisor?