Lawstudents.ca

Will I need a suit for first year?

I would recommend one for firm function and interviews.

Ladies, which do you prefer; pantsuits or skirt suits?

Charcoal or Navy?

Also wear to buy it? I am a skinny guy. Banana Republic seems to have some skinny stuff. I am aware I can go to a tailor, but they just re-size..they dont restyle Ive been told..in other words, if you want a slim suit, buy it that way first.

I would say Navy, but Charcoal is fine too. Whatever looks best on you. Where are you located?

Currently in London , ON. Who here knows anything about slim-fitted suits?

It depends if you have nice legs. If I have a giant bruise from skiing, then I go with pants to avoid looking battered.

Very useful for the occasional job interview (like for 1L summer) and court appearance (if you do legal clinic work in 1L). If you have to make hard choices about finances you can go without, but it's quite a good purchase at this stage--particularly since it will be nearly required in 2L. I'd buy a suit or two if I went back in time and was starting 1L soon.

Edit: Oh yeah, the poster who mentioned firm functions, that's a really good point.

Haha! I think I'll have to stick with pants then. What's a good place to start looking if I want a moderately priced suit?

There's a really really (and i can't stress this enough) really good thread a way's back.
http://lawstudents.ca/forums/viewtopic. ... 77&start=0

This blog post should tell you everything to know:
http://onemansstyle.wordpress.com/2009/ ... -the-suit/

If you're too lazy, here's the coles notes version:

The suit

1. Buy a suit that fits - get measured.
2. Two button suit - more versatile
3. Charcoal or Navy - no pinstripes yet.
4. Cuff the pants if you're really tall, no cuffs if you aren't.

The shirt:

1. Stick to solid, conservatively colored shirts - white or blue, basically.
2. Spread collars are more formal than point collars - don't do a button down collar.
3. French cuffs are more formal than barrel cuffs.
4. Shy away from patterns, and for the love of God, never, ever, ever wear a black shirt with a red tie (you'll look like a waiter)

The Shoes

1. Get nice shoes and sink some good coin into them - they're like the foundation of a good suit.
2. Black shoes or brown only.
3. Oxford lace-ups - loafers look sloppy.
4. Polish them.

The Tie

1. Never let the tie hang lower than your belt, never let it sit high enough to show shirt below it.
2. If you shirt is striped, your tie isn't (and vice versa, same goes for suit/shirt)
3. The tie is supposed to stand out, have fun with it.

Bottom line: Whatever you wear, be confident about it.

We slightly disagree here. I would add oxblood to the list. A proper pair (not too bright, not too dark) of oxblood shoes looks amazing with the right suit.

Also, match your belt to your shoes, always. If you are on the skinny side, you can try going beltless--it can look oddly classy if you can pull it off (and the pants have tabs/are tailored well).

Regarding the jacket itself, never ever go ventless. Ever. Two-button is the best place to start, but definitely try on a three-button if it's well-made--some people simply look better in a three-button (but it's rare, in my opinion). Also, unless you a large-ish fellow, don't even look at a double-breasted suit. If the salesperson shows you one, it's a sure sign they don't know anything about fashion. Double-breasted suits make you look like a child wearing daddy's clothes (again, unless you are on the large side, in which case they can look very "classic hollywood"). There are about ten skinny men in the world who can pull off an off-the-rack double-breasted jacket.

Adding to the shoes discussion, make sure your shoes and belt match. I have one pair of black and one pair of brown shoes to match with a reversable belt (black on one side, brown on the other). It is simple yet effective. Buy your belt and shoes together to make sure they are a close color match.

As for shirts, stick to solid white or blue if you are new to formal business attire. These colors provide the basis for a conservative, classic, professional look. You can always wear a power tie with a white shirt to project a confident image.

I can't stress this enough: spend a little more for a really good tailoring job. Even if you only spend $300 on your suit, it will look nice enough if it is well-tailored. On a related point, the difference between a $300 and $500 suit is considerable. If this is going to be the only suit you own, it is a good investment to spend the extra $200. For instance, a Ralph Lauren will hang nicer than a generic Moore's brand cut. It will also last longer.

Learn how to tie your tie properly. In my current job, I interview prospective employees several times a month. It may sound shallow, but a part of my first impression is based on the tie. If it is a really bad double windsor, a loose knot, or too long/ short, it tells me this person isn't detail oriented. The "Prince Albert" knot is timeless in my opinion; it is a great, everyday, classic, working-man's knot. Plus, it is easy to tie. Anyone from the CEO down to a summer intern can use this knot and look great in any situation.

The final point: remember to dress for the job you want, not the job you have. If you want to be an Associate at a particular firm, look at how those Associates dress and prepare your wardrobe accordingly.

You can always by the skirt and pants for the suit and then mix and match as your legs demand.

I prefer Mexx because it fits me better. If you are willing to spend a bit more cash, Pink Tartan has some good stuff. Sometimes you can even find it at Winners.

p.s. way to hijack the man thread...

Adding to this, if you really want to make a good impression fashion wise (good fashion is indicative of personality imo), the difference between a $500 and $800-$1000 suit is incredible. While I wholeheartedly agree that an off-the-rack Moores suit should be avoided at all costs, a Ralph Lauren suit, purchased from the Bay, is only marginally better. Spend $800-1000 and get yourself a tailor made Coppley suit -- especially if this will be the only suit you'll be buying. It's abundantly obvious when you come across somebody wearing a Coppley suit...even when compared to Ralph Lauren, and other similar mass marketed psuedo-designer labels. A very worthwhile investment. http://www.coppley.com/

ETA: Coppley suits are usually exclusively made from Ermenegildo Zegna fabric...exceptional quality in terms of durability and image.

Also, this may seem obvious, but don't accept the advice of any sales associate that doesn't look good. They're at work, in the fashion industry, and if you don't think they're killin' it, you're "just looking around" until a better-dressed associate comes by. Make sure to get someone who cares.

Regarding price, I pay about $700-800 for made-to-measure suits from a private dealer (this is a lot less hoity-toity than it sounds; they're pretty common, cheap, handy small businesses). I could have six suits right now instead of my current three, but they wouldn't last as long, I'd feel underdressed or uncomfortable in worse fabric and a lousy cut, and I'd have to rotate the cheaper suits out when I was able to afford suits that make me look like a professional instead of someone's awkward prom date.

Everyone says your first suit is an investment in your career, but very few people seem to take them seriously, even though the word "vestment" is right in there! Every day that I'm in court, people seeking a lawyer come up to me and ask me questions. When I ask them how they picked me out, they all say the same thing: "you looked like a lawyer". (That is, unless they saw me cross the bar. For those folks, it's a dead giveaway.)

It's interesting to note in many cases that they didn't ask much more experienced (i.e., non-student) counsel that were hanging out near me. They make high-five, low-six figure salaries, and I owe about that much in student debt. And they're way, way more qualified and deserving of respect than I am. But apparently when someone's radar is up to find a lawyer, they gravitate towards the guy in a fitted suit, buffed oxfords and a pocket square. Not a bad image to project when you're applying for jobs. If you already look like a lawyer, your interviewer starts from the mental position that you're essentially one of them that hasn't come out of school yet, instead of an aspiring student hoping to become one of them.

Realistically, you're shopping for something you're going to have to wear twice a week for four months straight, perhaps in your first year, likely in your second, and again twice a week for the rest of your life once you start articling. You really don't want to spend 40% of your young working life looking rumpled and uncomfortable, having trouble lifting your arms and getting hot around the neck and armpits. It's totally worth the extra $200-$300 to make such a large portion of your life much more breathable and comfortable, and (most importantly) to give yourself the little bit of confidence that will come in handy when you feel more inept and incompetent than you have at any other time in your life.

So, uh, cheers!

Okay, so I didn't answer your question at all! BR is a good place to get started; their Monogram line is actually a nice taper-cut. If you follow the link provided above, there are a few more good suggestions for southern Ontario.

Skinny isn't much of a problem, but extremely skinny is actually kind of tough to fit, as the shoulders are the hardest thing to take in. That said, if you're willing to drop a dime on actually getting a tailor to take it apart, you're going to be just fine. They don't restyle, you're right --- but it's not really restyling to pull everything in a few inches. If you asked them to shorten the lapels or change a two-button to a three-button suit, then you'd be out of luck.

If you're extremely skinny but with broad shoulders, then you're in an even better position. It's hard to say whether or not you need a specialty store or a made-to-measure suit without knowing more about you. It couldn't hurt to go get measured for a shirt at an upscale joint like Holt's or Harry, and then take that info to a discount MTM service like indochino.com or a private importer. (Sometimes these latter services will also provide a measurement service.)

Finally, re: colour, I always suggest navy as your starting block. Not only is it more formal than charcoal and less likely to be noticed as being the same suit again on a different occasion, it's much easier to match. If you're in a navy suit with a white or blue shirt, it's impossible to mess up the tie. You'll know right away what goes and what doesn't. Charcoal with a striped shirt, you can make all kinds of little mis-matches, and find the suit itself a lot less versatile when your budget and business wardrobe are limited. And it's tough to wear the same charcoal suit to a funeral, a wedding and a cocktail party; at at least one of these occasions, your suit may seem either too light or too dark. A single navy suit can be easily adjusted to all three occasions, though, as it's dark enough to be innocuous. Plus, it's a lot easier to spot shoddy quality or inferior material on a charcoal suit than a navy one; the darkness hides the jacket's imperfections.

Wow, thanks so much. I'm about 5'8 130lbs so I'm pretty dman skinny. I definately see what BR has in store in navy this summer and if a tailor is needed. Thanks for the in depth response. God I cant wait to suit up hahahaha

I know I feel like such a troll! I checked out the MEXX website and they seem to have some cool black suits, I'll check it out. What kind of purse/suitcase is appropriate for interviews, firm events etc?

I was actually quite surprised at the lack of suitcases during the interview/firm event process. I wonder if it has to do more with the fact that we're all broke, or that we're all somehow cleaving to the old common law tradition of receiving a briefcase from well-wishers upon your call to the Bar. I've heard it said that buying your own briefcase before you get called is actually a jinx!

Basic black leather shoulder bag seemed to be de rigueur. I saw a few minaudières around a couple of the firm events, but they were few and far between --- and in my humble opinion, appropriately so. They're ill-suited to post-interview drinks, especially when the other attendees are just coming off work and the women in question are in business suits instead of gowns. Never mix LBD accessories with officewear; it's vaguely schizophrenic. Save the rhinestones for the actual cocktail parties. Once you're hired, God knows you'll see enough of them.

I got a beautiful, good-fitting suit for my (undergrad) graduation - it cost a lot, and it looks great, the only problem is that it's black. I really wish that the salesman had taken more time to talk me out of that decision. I'm going to have to buy a new suit now instead of being able to use that otherwise perfect suit.

What's wrong with wearing a black suit?

Black just isn't as versatile as navy or charcoal... you can wear it to formal/social events, but for professional functions it just stands out too much.

Yeah i've seen black suits before; charcoal looks a lot better. Black also has a more funeral kind of feel to it.

same! to make it worse it's striped too.

really wish i got a navy or charcoal suit..

Hmmm, I wonder if it's the same for girls... I was thinking of getting a black suit

The problem with being a chick and wearing a black suit is that you look like you should either be behind a make up counter in a department store or selling bras at La Senza.

The real trick is that a lot of black cloth dyes shimmer with a greenish tinge in flourescent light. Not a big deal, unless you're absolutely anywhere a lawyer happens to work.

That said, a black suit isn't the end of the world, especially for women. Men can easily be washed out by black because we don't wear makeup or necklaces and we have to match a shirt and tie; women have carte blanche pour la noir, I suspect. I certainly see more women rocking a crisp black suit for business than men. It is very slimming, which doesn't do as much for men, who actually inflate their size with shoulder pads and an open jacket.

Plus, what's more alluring than a woman in black? It has gotten more than a bit overused, as almostnot suggests, but I'll never complain.

Is your suit kinda like this? http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channe ... ster_4.jpg

If so, I wouldn't worry too much about it. You should be fine.

damn youre up on fashion

The real irony is that although I took some time to understand it, I'm no good at it.

I can follow the rules and know what not to do, but I myself have a pretty mediocre sense of style.

Damn this is a bit overwhelming. If I walk in somewhere talking about padded shoulders, glued vs. stitched seams etc, will they help me out or will they think I am some kind of nut? I've never bought a suit before, but I understand how important a good "fit" is with clothing in general. Do people normally go this in-depth when buying suits? Will I get ripped off if I go someplace and ask the guy to help me find something that'll fit nice?

haha, no, the stripes are more subtle..

like this: http://debenhams.scene7.com/is/image/De ... 97_0027945

You'll be fine. Looking in the mirror, you can tell what looks good and what doesn't. That's all that matters. Just make sure you have the confidence to say no --- that's the most critical thing. These people are used to customers just taking whatever they offer, first time around. You should look awesome. If you don't, ask to see something else. If they're floundering, go to another store. There are plenty. I still regret having bought the first suit I did in Toronto. I really wasn't sure about the fit, but it seemed to be close to what I was looking for. Now, seeing the difference between that thing and made-to-measure routed it straight to the Goodwill. I actually couldn't wear it anymore and feel good about myself. I didn't just banish it to the back of the closet, I junked it outright. Really felt stupid for having gone along with what someone was telling me, rather than what I saw. Just accept that you might be there all day, and you might have to try different stores. They're selling you something expensive; you're under no obligation to take it.

Finding places that work on commission actually helps, as the associates want to build a clientele. Menswear stores are the only places I've ever found the 'L-bomb' to have a positive effect. The dude kept probing about what I needed the accessories for, and when I broke down and told him he was suddenly a lot less dismissive of my concerns and a lot more interested in making sure I got exactly what I wanted. Service jumped 50%, easy. Convince a sales associate that he's going to make some money from you in the long run and he'll have a vested interest in making you happy.

Cheap, made-to-measure suits.

http://www.indochino.com/

The buzz is that the quality is definitely not the best... but it isn't poor either. They have some cool minor details that are impressive (like custom monogramming and functional sleeve buttonholes).

However their service is apparently amazing. They are very helpful and if the suit arrives improperly sized, they will pay for you to have it re-tailored.

Also... the only place besides actually going to Thailand that you can get a MTM suit for 200-400 dollars.

My two cents.

Thanks, so I guess it's like buying anything. I did read through the thread and the linked articles as well but the details are awash right now. Are shoulders the main thing to look for then? And everything else (like the waist etc) should be as approximately well-fitting as possible? I remember reading that shoulder-width is the only thing tailors can't fix. Sorry if this is a repeat question. I do remember the part about spending $100 on a nice shirt though. I think it was from the old thread.